Nigeria’s former Ambassador to the Philippines, Dr Yemi Farounbi, in this interview by SAM NWAOKO, speaks on a number of national issues.
There is lopsidedness in Nigeria’s structures and there is little or no equity in the distribution of some things. Local governments and their inequitable numbers in the constitution is one of them. Do you think this might be one of the reasons some people are afraid of restructuring?
Two things are happening: Those who are benefitting from the centralised unitary system do not want to give up their benefits. And those who are handicapped by this centralised, unified federalism have been pushed to the minority by the provisions of the constitution. They are therefore unable to get a say. But I always tell people, we need peace to be able to have prosperity. We need peace to be able to have progress, but for you to have peace there must be justice, equity and equality. Even the West Indian singer, Peter Tosh said that. So, if we are to give justice to all Nigerians; if we are to treat each Nigerian as an individual that is equal to other Nigerians, if we are not to begin to look at landscape, areas, kilometres or meters, at the unit of the federation – and I’m happy that the Senate President prevented even cows from becoming citizens of Nigeria – it will only ensure that Nigerians are treated justly, fairly and equitably. And we are going to have peace; we are going to have rapid development and prosperity. But those who are benefitting must know that they will not benefit forever because those who are handicapped will not keep quiet forever, and so long as they keep on agitating to have equal benefit with those who are today advantaged by the military-imposed constitution, there would be imbalance and there will be clamour for nation-state, there will be clamour for IPOB, there will be clamour for Islamic State of West Africa, there would be clamour for Islamic State of Greater Sahara etc. All these clamours are products of lack of justice and equity.
That is why those who know a little about Marxism know that equitable distribution, justice and justifiable distribution are foundational to progress because once you do not treat all of us as equals, then I begin to talk of ethnicity. I begin to talk of ‘we share the same religion’; ‘we share the same language’, ‘we went to the same school’ – I begin to look for ways to get what I should get because the constitution has not treated all of us equally and rightly.
If we all love Nigeria, then we have to realise that what we call a consensus is that, those who are advantaged today will concede. Those who are disadvantaged will also concede. Then we meet at a mutual point that will be of benefit to all of us, and you will find that there will be no grumbling and there will be no rat race to become president or governor. When you get a stable system that is based on justice and equity, you will find that the country can almost run without government – almost on autopilot. But when what you get depends on who is the president, or depends on what language he speaks or what religion he practices or what economic class he belongs, then those who don’t share that with him become handicapped. It is this concept of entitlement – I am entitled because I come from a ‘born-to-rule’ state because I have so much money or I belong to a favoured class or religion – once you have that kind of concept of entitlement that leads a feeling of settlement; when I get entitled then you begin to settle me. When you have entitlement and settlement in place in democracy, then you are not on the way to true democracy nor are you on the way to true federalism.
Some are of the opinion that the attempt at reintroducing six-year single term is one of the reasons there has been a form of regrouping by northern elements and political chiefs. Do you see this government pushing through with this amendment or is it a way of negotiating to cement a second term bid?
I think that is the unfortunate thing. Nobody is really talking about what is the best for Nigeria. If we were talking of what should be the best for Nigeria, nobody should be talking of a second term. What you are saying is that there has to be a dramatic end to the contemporary rottenness, contemporary decadence, contemporary injustice, contemporary illegitimacy and illegality. If we are going to have a sharp end that means we are going to have a new beginning. This government can be remembered forever, can become the greatest in Nigeria if they stop thinking of a second term but they begin to think of what is best for Nigeria. How can we make Nigeria comfortable for the 237 million people? How can we lift the 132 million people that are said to be multi-dimensionally poor? How can we begin to generate enough employment that our youths will not be Japaing to foreign countries? The young that we have invested so much in training, they migrate from Nigeria in large numbers to go and develop and benefit other nations. That is what they should be thinking about. How are we going to stop businesses from migrating from Nigeria? Many multi-national companies have migrated from Nigeria and when they do, they create unemployment because those people who used to work there will be jobless and the capacity to absorb young graduates will not be there because they would be doing that in other countries.
So, we need a selfless government that is not talking of a second term but will say ‘let me create the foundation for a better Nigeria’. That better Nigeria we should all negotiate and agree to can start immediately after their own term. So, there will not be a fear that it is a secret way of creating elongation because if you are an incumbent and you have a four-year term and you are now talking of a six-year term and you are going to be the one to start the six-year term, then you are already talking of 10 years. That is not the kind of selflessness that we are looking for. We are looking for somebody that would look at Nigeria and want to make history. We are looking for an Oliver Cromwell that turned England round from a monarchy into a parliamentary democracy; that gave press freedom that we all love today to the United Kingdom. That is the kind we are looking for… somebody who would believe that history will acquit me, history will justify me the way Fidel Castro said. That is the kind of people we are looking for, not somebody who is already thinking of a second term. When you start thinking of a second term, you are thinking again of this spirit of entitlement. I am entitled two terms. Why didn’t Mandela think that he was entitled to two terms? He was in prison for 27 years so that there can be black majority rule, but he didn’t carry that kind of spirit of entitlement for him to insist that ‘I must have two terms’. If Mandela was probably from Zimbabwe or Malawi or Uganda he would have said ‘I was in prison for 27 years, therefore, I must rule for 27 years’.
Those who have struggled for democracy must not believe that it is their right to be in government. The struggle for democracy is a struggle for better governance for Nigeria; a better independent, fearless and bold judiciary for Nigeria; a free, credible press for Nigeria; an independent parliament for Nigeria; the enthronement of the rule of law for Nigeria. That is what struggle for democracy means. It doesn’t mean that I am going to benefit. We struggled for democracy for Nigeria to become better. Nigeria can be Dubai or can be as great as America, Canada if we choose to make it. But the moment we think that we must benefit, it is the wrong approach to democracy. It is the nation that must benefit.
So, if this administration wants to be remembered forever for solving the multi-dimensional problems of Nigeria, for giving Nigeria a new lease of life, for bringing a new breath from Nigeria, if they don’t begin to think that they are the only wise persons, that they are the only ones who have the wisdom and the knowledge and the ability to govern, if they know that democracy is about the government of the people for the people and by the people, then they will give us true democracy and they will give us true federalism. Those two things don’t mean the same thing. The fact that you have true federalism does not mean that you have true democracy.
Part of the things I am expecting this government to be able to do for us is election too. There should be an electoral system that should be independent and bold. Apart of election, the two other pillars are the judiciary and the legislature that we need to make good foundation, because we have seen that good election can even produce a dictator. A good election in 1934 produced Hitler; a good election in Italy produced Mussolini. But a good election in America produced Roosevelt. So, there are other pillars that we need for us to have true democracy and other things associated with it, because we are diverse.
So, this government headed by Tinubu, who had been a victim of the ill-effects of centralised democracy can do better. He was a governor for eight years. He fought Obasanjo’s central government for local government. He fought Obasanjo’s government before he could have Enron, the independent Power Project. He fought issues that are related to democracy. he was there when we were talking about Sovereign National Conference so that we can have authentic and autochthonous constitution. He was there in the struggle for true federalism. He can become the greatest Nigerian in history if he stops thinking of what would be a second term but is thinking of what would be of greater benefit to Nigeria. He must stop seeing himself as a beneficiary of the struggle for democracy; he must begin to see Nigeria and indeed all Nigerians as beneficiaries. When you begin to think that I struggled therefore I must benefit, that is what we call the spirit of entitlement, the spirit of Emilokan or Awa lokan which mass hunger has changed to Ebi Lokan. When people begin to talk this way, we feel there is a disconnect between the people ruling us and those of us that are being ruled. In a proper democracy, that must not happen.
How would this elusive, nebulous true federalism come about in the light of all the distractions and alterations in both the society and the constitution? Isn’t the government tilting towards these distractions?
This government would appear to be tilting towards the reinforcement of the distortions and the distractions because this government is also beginning to behave like those who created the distortions and distractions. Those who created the distractions that we have in the 1999 Constitution were the military. They gave the constitution to us as a decree which we now call our constitution. They were military, they didn’t have the training and the inclination to be democratic. So, based on a report of a 27-man Niki Tobi-led committee they gave this constitution that lied against itself. It says ‘We the people of Nigeria…’ but they never consulted Nigerians. But they could be pardoned because they were military. They were not government of the people, they were not for the people and their government was not by the people.
However, this is a civilian government that is a product of an election albeit a minority civilian government. They ought to be able to look at things from the global perspective rather than a minority partisan ethno-religious view that those who gave us the constitution did. But unfortunately, they would appear, either out of fear for them or out of trying to get sufficient votes for a second term, they would appear to be kowtowing to the wishes of these distortions and distractions. And that will be a pity because it will be an opportunity lost by somebody (Tinubu) who can be called really ‘the father of a truly democratic and federal Nigeria’. But the choice is his to make. However, from what we see, it will seem as if these distractions and distortions; these inanities, conflicts and contradictions will continue if he continues on the path which he is following now.
Are there ways we can benefit from government, like learning from the coalition formed in South Africa, through which Nigerians can see government run easier and better for their benefit?
During the campaigns, President Tinubu said he would not run a government of national unity. He said he would run a government of national competence. We are still waiting for that. If we look at how the 1963 Constitution was put in place, then NPC was dominant but didn’t do it alone. The NPC collaborated with all the political parties: NCNC, Action Group, NNDP, UMDPC, NEPU and all of them. They formed a rainbow coalition to look at Nigeria and to see what we ought to do to make Nigeria better. For us to be able to achieve some of these things where human beings will not be equated to cows and so on, they have to broaden the base of the government and strengthen the approach of the government. In America where there is a presidential system, because that is what they will say when you say they should involve other people, I like to quote a particular example of Henry Kissinger and Richard Nixon. Nixon was a Republican. Kissinger was a university teacher, a Kennedy professor of government at Harvard University. But he had a lot of publications on strategic studies and security. So, when Nixon became president, he knew that Kissinger never supported him. Kissinger was a supporter of Rockefeller, he never supported Nixon. But Nixon knew that on merit, he needed him. So they scouted for Kissinger to come and be National Security Adviser at that time. Even though he was anti-Nixon, he became Secretary of State.
So what I am saying is this: If they think that all our politicians must come from the BATist wing of APC, then we are getting it wrong. The American presidential system which we have copied will never ask the state wings of the Democratic Party to nominate members. They would be looking, using consultants for the best in each area. The firm or consultant will come up with the best three in each of the areas and the president will hold meetings with them and weigh their chemistry and compatibility before he makes appointment. But in a situation in which everybody has to come from your party, even though you are a minority, then you are not likely to be able to build a wide-based foundation for the kind of changes that Nigeria needs. We will have people who will continue to look at how APC will continue to win, not how Nigeria will continue to win. It will be how will President BAT have a second term, it will not be how Nigeria will get better governed or managed and so on.
So, we can learn from the experiences of South Africa to make sure that nobody ever becomes the president of Nigeria who does not win 50 percent of the votes. If he got 37 percent, then he will have to negotiate with the other parties to establish a broad-based rainbow coalition which would be a bigger house for all of us to be. I recall that in the early PDP days, they used to give appointment to AD, APP even though the PDP was a dominant majority then. They realised that they needed these other views and these other perspectives because they realised that they needed a stronger base. I think the South African experience has proved to us that we can pursue stronger stability rather than this winner-takes-all approach that we have.
If you are to encourage this administration on the six-year single term being proposed, what will you advise?
I will say to President Tinubu whom I knew in the days of the very first SDP: Think of history. Think of what history will say about you. When they were burying Winston Churchill and they referred to him as the greatest British man that lived, it was for his contribution. I will want that for Tinubu. One day, they will look at him and say ‘this man came, he recreated Nigeria and built a foundation that gave all of us peace, progress, development, prosperity such that Nigerians would be coming back home; such that Nigerians would be respected in the international scene and so that we will recover our solid voice in international diplomacy. I will love that for him. I will want that for him. I will say ‘stop thinking of a second term, think of a bigger Nigeria. See yourself as the change agent or what the scientists will call the catalyst. Tinubu can become the catalyst for that great Nigeria or our collective dream and history will never forget him.
The belief is that the kind of catalyst available now is manifesting in what is happening in Kano State and Rivers State. One is traditional while the other is political but both are said to be engineered. The two major voting hubs in the North and in the South are embroiled in avoidable crises. What do you think is happening?
People are looking at votes they are not looking at Nigeria. I believe that a lot of people don’t understand Kano State. Kano is the most conservative when it comes to religion. It is more conservative in Islamic religion than even Sokoto. But Kano State is the most active and the most revolutionary in the North. That has been the home of the Talakawas, the state that gave NEPU and Aminu Kano the voice. So, there is a contradiction in Kano – conservatism in religion and radicalism in politics. So, people who are engineering conflict there which are basically political; and who are engineering conflict because they are thinking of personal gains in terms of 2027, must learn one thing: they may get consumed by the light they are igniting.
It is the same thing with Rivers. Same thing we are beginning to see the traces in Sokoto State. Those who want to leave a mark on the historical and developmental map of Nigeria should throw away the glasses they are wearing because it is not seeing the long term gains of Nigeria, it is seeing the short term gains. But the short-term gains may get complicated by acts of omission or commission. I will want to remind the president and all the political parties of what Anthony Enahoro said at the House of Reps in Lagos in 1962: “We are embarking on a journey the beginning of which we know, the end of which we don’t know.” That was the day they were trying to declare a state of emergency in the West. If they had listened to him in the Federal House that day and probably had not declared a state of emergency in the West that took away the majority government and supplanted it with a Majekodunmi emergency administration, perhaps there would have been no ‘Operation Wetie’ in the West. Perhaps there might have been no January 1966 because one of the causes of that was the Operation Wet e. The second cause of the 1966 coup was what was happening in the Middle Belt, the oppressiveness in the Middle Belt and the recklessness of those oppressing in the Middle Belt.
So, we must begin to look beyond political gains. We must begin to see the monument of history, the heritage we can leave behind.
Today when you go to America they talk about Jefferson, they talk about Hamilton, Woodrow Wilson, they talk about Roosevelt, Kennedy and so on. These are distinguished presidents whereas there are those names when they are mentioned you don’t even remember that they were president. I don’t think that is what Tinubu should be. He should be a president that would be remembered for the great contribution that he would have made for laying a foundation for a better Nigeria, not for whether eight years or you have 10 years. People say ‘it’s not how long but how well’.
The national anthem debate is still raging, one way or the other. The Senate President tried to defend the reintroduction of the old national anthem recently and said it has a history. What is your take on the issue?
I look at it as a social scientist. The ‘Nigeria we hail thee’ talks about tribe. Are there tribes in Nigeria? Tribe is a derogatory word used by that English woman to describe what, in her own country, will be called ‘nation’. Is England a tribe? Is Wales a tribe? Is Scotland a tribe? Is Yoruba a tribe? Is Igbo a tribe? Is Hausa a tribe? Ijaw, Kalabari, Efik, are they tribes? They are not tribes in Nigeria. So why must we take an anthem that begins to talk about our ethnic nations, that are so civilsed that way? In 1483, when the whites came to Africa, they said that the Yoruba were the most urbanized. They were shocked that we had things like Ife bronze. They were shocked that Benin had their bronze; they were shocked when they found in the Nigerian Middle belt the Nok culture. We had no iron and steel factories, we were making hoes and cutlasses before they came. These are the civilised people you are now categorising as ‘tribes’ in our own national anthem! I think it is sad. Absolutely!
There is also this fact also that this anthem was a donation by white lady. The music was composed by a white man. In fact, the first performance of that anthem was by a white orchestra. Even on October 1, it was a white orchestra that played it. Why must we tie ourselves to slavery? When everybody is trying to see emancipation, it was that emancipation that changed Gold Coast to Ghana, it was that emancipation that we’ve been seeing in some other African countries and that is the thing we thought. But what have we done? We threw away an anthem that was composed by five young Nigerians across ethnic and religious biases, we threw it away. We threw away an anthem which music was directed by the Director of Police Music. Everything about that anthem is Nigerian.
Even if, for any reason, you don’t want ‘Arise o compatriots’, you could have embarked on another exercise rather than install. And the peak of it is that it would appear that we have substituted for President Tinubu for National Interest. He said in an interview that he didn’t like the new anthem – Arise o compatriots – that if he had his way he would change it. He became president and he used the authority of a self-serving National Assembly to change it. At least they could have had a pretense of consulting the 230 million people, they could have pretended to hold a public hearing and claim that the public hearing made them to approve it. The substitution of public interest with personal interest, no matter how lofty, is not always the best. That is my view as a social scientist.
Our country celebrated 25 years of unbroken democracy since 1999. We also celebrated June 12. As a social scientist, would you say that the struggle has been worth it?
I think we have only celebrated 25 years of civilian rule. I don’t believe we have democracy in Nigeria yet. We might be on the march to it but we are not there yet. There are pillar accepted worldwide as fundamental to the concept of democracy. Not only that you must have good governance, that is executive that is transparent and that is answerable. Do we have that yet? Second one is that you must have a credible opposition. What we call an alternative government in waiting. Do we have that? Do we have alternative viewpoints, brick and bats, boldly and carefully and clearly articulated by alternative parties in waiting? We don’t. in 25 years, we have not had a strong opposition. What we have had are parties that are just vote gatherers. When we formed the PDP in 1999, it had no ideology beyond that there will be power shift, and that it will be rotational and that we don’t want the military again. Is that ideology? When they formed the APC, it was just to make sure that they can unseat Goodluck Jonathan. That was all, there was nothing economically or ideological. The third is that you have a legislature that is independent and counterbalancing. We are to have three arms of government, and in Nigerian definition of democracy the three of them are to be independent and to be counterbalancing. Is Nigerian legislature counterbalancing? Even under Olusegun Obasanjo, the succession of senate presidents, the succession of the House of Reps under Jonathan and under Muhammadu Buhari, can we say that we have reached the level at which our legislature can dare the executive? No.
Then you talk of the judiciary, do we have a fearless judiciary? Do we have the caliber of Charles Warren of the American Judiciary in Nigeria or Lord Denin of the UK? Do we have justices of the caliber of L. Onyeama or Kayode Eso in the majority? No! we have a judiciary that is creating problem like we have in Kano, judiciary that will go out of their jurisdiction to pass judgement? So, we don’t have judiciary that is okay. Rule of law, do we obey rule of law? Do we obey judgements? They obey judgements they have packaged through judges of their own otherwise they ignore it.
Perhaps the only area Nigeria has excelled is the press. We have a vibrant press that fought for us to get independence. Without the press, those who masquerade as fighters of democracy would have paled into insignificance. It was the press that fought the battle that removed the military.
So we don’t have a democracy yet.
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